This is the collection of three posts I made on the Heraldry Discord explaining the rationale behind wanting topic channels to stay at the top of the channel stack. While it’s a bit rough without the context, and is addressing some specifics of that space, I feel it’s still valuable and can eventually be reworked into something easier to reference and apply broadly. For now, though, I hope it provides insight.

Modagogy: Off-Topic Channels

Post 1

I just wanted to say that, personally, I actually really appreciate how focused this server is on the topic it’s about. That’s absolutely not the norm on Discord or elsewhere, and really does contribute a lot toward making this space and community feel like somewhere to go for a niche topic/hobby, and not just another omni-hangout trying too hard to cater to every person who rolls in. The commitment to redirecting off-topic conversations and the focus of the channels being primarily on Heraldry and related/interconnected topics is a big, big part of that.

As a mod in other communities, I know it’s a constant battle to redirect tangents. But it’s a very worthwhile one, not just for the sake of keeping this place focused around its purpose, but also because that kind of visibility does so much to communicate that this garden is well kept, so to speak.

If I might put on my modagogical hat for a moment: Soft Interventions like redirecting topics is so often underutilized in online spaces for how critical they are to both managing a space’s culture as well as creating moderator presence within a community. Small scale culture-setting (like reinforcing channel purpose) is the perfect situation for Soft Intervention, because the goal isn’t to shut things down or enforce hard lines. Rather, it’s about reaffirming a particular vision for the space and how the community is a part of it.

So, I’m glad that is the approach that is taken here, rather than the sort of “Hard Intervention first/only” approach Fritz described. And I’m actually also glad that both off-topic channels aren’t really having attention called to them with how the channels are structured. This is a Heraldry server first, and while space for other topics is provided, the hierarchy of Heraldry > related topics > art/hobbies > unrelated topics/miscellaneous socialization is one of the best structural and cultural features here.

Post 2

I’ll repost the relevant part of what I wrote in #meta when the conversation on this happened, just to help give perspective first:

… I’m actually also glad that both off-topic channels aren’t really having attention called to them with how the channels are structured. This is a Heraldry server first, and while space for other topics is provided, the hierarchy of Heraldry > related topics > art/hobbies > unrelated topics/miscellaneous socialization is one of the best structural and cultural features here.

So, regarding how the focus of this server (and the community’s attention) is directed, having #off-topic at the bottom is beneficial in my view. Topics like banners, emblems, visual arts, etc. are more directly related to Heraldry than general social hanging out is. So, naturally, those topic channels should be closer to the Heraldry related channels.

When community members browse channels, having topic channels higher up communicates a certain purpose for the space, subtly encourages browsers to engaging in those channels, and reinforces on-topic conversation as the primary way members interact. In my experience, when a space is focused on relevant topics in that way, it makes it easier to maintain a higher standard of quality. Because, you’re not only encouraging folks with a mutual interest to engage with one another in a place dedicated to that interest, but the conversations themselves have clearer boundaries. It’s good policy to encourage people to browse relevant topic channels over general hangout channels, because that’s closer to what they’re there for.

On the flipside, I’m also not particularly convinced that moving the off-topic channels up will actually facilitate the organic movement of off-topic chat from on-topic channels. The thing that was raised before–and why there was a whole discussion around soft interventions moving off-topic chatter–is that on-topic conversations often shift into being off-topic and need to be politely redirected to more appropriate channels.

This, to me, doesn’t read as an issue of channel discovery. The off-topics aren’t hidden away, they’re just at the bottom of a (relatively small) stack. De-emphasized for folks who are browsing, sure, but still plenty available and accessible for those who are seeking them out. Honestly, I think it’s a leap to say people aren’t staying in #heraldry-chat with their tangential conversation because #off-topic is too hard to find. Really, if folks weren’t already moving off-topic tangents over there organically, I really doubt they will do so just because it’s now higher up in the list.

The actual simple explanation here that I see is: conversations naturally drift and folks tend to stick to the channel that they were already participating in as the conversations do. And I want to be clear, tangents are a normal part of conversation. It’s also totally normal (and a sign of good stewardship, in my opinion) for mods to use soft intervention to redirect conversations that have tangented!

I think the community could better approach organically moving conversations once it’s clear that they’re off-topic, but that’s primarily something that needs to be tackled culturally, not structurally. And, honestly, speaking as a moderator with experience in a variety of other communities, it’s also entirely expected and (assuming those involved are polite and respectful) being asked to move to an appropriate channel shouldn’t be a big deal. Culture setting is arguably the primary job of a moderator, and doesn’t have to be adversarial.

So, in short, why I voted no: I think the off-topic channels’ position at the bottom is preferable from a structural standpoint to emphasize Heraldry and related topics. And, moving them wouldn’t solve the thing that’s happening because it’s primarily driven by natural conversational dynamics and developing organic channel changing is primarily cultural.

Post 3

For clarity: When I refer to “having topic channels higher up”, I’m not referring to the Heraldry Category (though that is important to have at the top, and I mention it to contextualize “related topics”). Rather, I’m talking about the topic-oriented channels in the “Other Topics” category. I specifically highlighted the descending order of the Other Topics category and talked about “relevant topics” multiple times to emphasize that. I’m also using a particular phrasing here: Heraldry is the “focus”, not the exclusive topic, and the structure of the Other Topics category reflects the degree of relatedness to that focus.

However, I do want to state my opinion here first: General socialization channels should absolutely be treated with lower importance than main-topic and related-topic channels (again, I want to note I’m using particular phrasing here). This isn’t a general socialization server, this is a Heraldry server. So general socialization not being treated as a primary way for community members to interact makes sense. I understand the sentiment of wanting to expand/emphasize the hangout because you enjoy it here, but that’s a trap so commonly fallen into.

I can’t tell you how many servers I’ve been in that had more channels totally unrelated to the place’s claimed main topic than actual places to talk about anything remotely close to that topic. I would say that’s, unfortunately, a very common way of structuring a Discord server nowadays. And it’s because–rather than focusing on and building a community around that main topic–those servers cater to a demand for overemphasized unrelated topic and general socialization spaces. Servers are really worse off for it, not the least because (as I’ve seen) the culture generated from them is often undesirable for folks looking to interact on the main or related topics (and that culture will, without fail, leak out). Forgive me for not being particularly sympathetic to the demand for socialization spaces to be emphasized more than they are, given my experience there.

More to the first part of what you wrote, though: I simply don’t see how Heraldry being the focus on a Heraldry server precludes you from socializing in one of the two publicly available off-topic channels. I keep seeing this notion coming up that because the off-topics are at the bottom of the stack (or because mods redirect off-topic conversations, as was brought up in the earlier #meta discussion) that means the idea is you can only ever talk about Heraldry. That’s not the actual reality here, though, and that’s not what I said before. Those spaces are de-emphasized, not unavailable.

There seems to be some conflation of “encouraging heraldry discussion” with stifling the social aspect of this place and enforcing an idea that the only conversations should be heraldry related. Those off-topic channels are perfectly accessible for folks seeking to interact “outside of a heraldry context”, assuming the related topics channels don’t already cover them. As I brought up before, the structure encourages browsing of the topic channels, but that doesn’t mean the off-topic channels are suddenly not visible–especially to someone coming in with the intent to socialize beyond heraldry as you’ve described.

The off-topic channels’ location in the stack is fine as-is. And furthermore, as I explained in my post, them being at the bottom isn’t what causes off-topic tangents to continue in on-topic channels, so moving them isn’t going to change anything. To be blunt, I see this as changing something for the worst as a way to not actually solve anything. So that’s why I voted no.